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Shryke42 wrote:

And that's exactly what I like too. Maybe that was Superman Returns' problem... it was too ponderous, too laid back, not much FUN. It's exactly why the two Fantastic Four movies are among my favorite comic book/superhero movies EVER.

[snip]

I said this in my review of FF2; I don't go into this type of movie looking for Academy Award-worthy performances. I want to smile, to laugh, to sit on the edge of my seat, to pump my fist ("YEAH, baby!") and to leave the theater thoroughly happy. For all of its faults, the FF movies did just that. I'll never say they are the best, but for me, they are among the most enjoyable. And in that respect, Superman Returns is way at the bottom of the list, right above The Hulk and right below Daredevil.

Gah, okay, you and I have about the opposite reaction from comicbook movies.

My bottom list (ranked worst to slightly-less-worst):
Spider-Man 3
FF2
X-Men 3
Daredevil
Spider-Man

My top list:
X-Men
Hulk
X-Men 2
Sin City
Constantine (does that one count?)

Notably not included in the lists because I did not see them:
Superman Returns
Catwomen
300
The Punisher

Notably not included in the list because, for some reason, I generally do not associate them with other comic book movies:
Alien vs. Predator
All the Batman movies
All the Superman movies
All the Blade movies
V for Vendetta

Notably not included in the hate list because, for some reason, I did not hate them even though everyone else did:
Hulk (I actually liked this movie...)
Elektra (I did not like it, but I did not hate it)
Ghost Rider (Too many other movies to hate, this one got lucky)

Six: Just to let you know, I'm not ducking your question about why I love Superman Returns, but I'm going to need a little time to compose my reply. Watch this space, I'll try to post something coherent by this time tomorrow. (Hey, there's always a first time for everything, right?)

Oh, tuan? I agree with exactly 50% of the following...

Bryan Singer, DAMN YOU!!!!! You had to leave X-3 in the hands of Brett Ratner and then go on and make this pussified version of Superman. DAMN YOU BRYAN SINGER!!!!!

What Rat B@$t@rd did to the X-Men Trilogy, effectively reducing it to a single decent film and then a superlative sequel, is quite simply unforgiveable. I hold this man in far greater contempt than I held Joel Schumacher in, for example, right after Batman & Robin... The man absolutely imploded what was, potentially, one of the greatest cinematic franchises, ever. He ought never work in Hollywood again, in my opinion. And, heck, I've even (for the most part) granted Spew-maker amnesty, a decade later...

becs: You made some good points, there, when you said:

...[A] difference of taste that really comes down fundamentally to comic book vs graphic novel... Graphic novel stylism... that gritty dark feel that you and I love so much has had a big upswing recently... [e.g.,] Batman Begins, 300, Sin City, and 30 Days of Night. I think what Nico is saying is he has an appreciation of the classic comic book style... a whole different genre, which revels in being ridiculous and squeaky clean, very 50's - which I think Superman Returns did a good job of re-creating, however with our modern cynicism and over exposure we find unbelievable and un-entertaining.

[Nodding] That's part of it, no question, and I may in fact refer to this a bit when I compose my reply to Number Six later on. Thanks!

...tuan also, perhaps unintentionally since I'm not sure how "serious" he was being with this comment, had a point along these same lines when he said:

Batman begins = manhood

Superman Returns = just entering puberty.

Not to sound too much like a friend of mine who does this (film commentary) for a living, but, you know, even though I'm a full-grown (and grown... and GROWN...) adult, these days, with a kid and a mortgage and investments and disputes with the local fascist, tyrannical Homeowners' Association and an incredibly underfunded retirement fund and all, I still appreciate those films that have the ability to transport me back to when I was, say, five, six, eight, nine, ten, eleven, or thirteen years old (the ages when, respectively, I first saw: Star Wars, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Superman, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, The Black Hole, Tron, E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial, Raiders of the Lost Ark and 2010: The Year We Make Contact). Superman Returns turned the clock back a good twenty-five years for me from JUMP. (Damn, and the moral of THAT story is, cRAzY may not BE so very, very "crazy," after all... matter of fact, perhaps he's right.. I AM middle-aged.)

I remain, as always...

Nico.

Why I Needed Superman Returns
by Nicodemus, special to Fantasy Moguls

Okay, so here it is: I love Superman Returns. I know many of you don't, and I'm sure you have good reasons why. It was, to be sure, a throwback, as fellow Forum contributor becs mentioned, to an earlier, perhaps quainter, age of comic-book film adaptations... a film, perhaps, far better suited to the '80s, certainly to the '70s, than to this new century of darker, grittier, more indefinably "realistic" graphic-novel descendants.

Superman Returns has about as much in common with the current, fashionable wave of stripped-down, postmodern, avant-garde superheroes -- the characters of V for Vendetta, Spawn, Sandman, Wolverine and, of course, Batman Begins / The Dark Knight Returns -- as The A-Team has with The Unit, or Mission: Impossible (the television series) has with 24, or Battlestar: Galactica [1978] has with Battlestar Galactica [2004]. In Superman Returns, Brian Singer "returned" to a hero who was deliberately, unambiguously, triumphantly and, yes, perhaps idiosyncratically, ICONIC -- the sort of superhero that harkens back to a time before moral relativism, 9/11 or Watchmen, who strives to personify not humanity as it IS -- ethically conflicted, often selfish, frequently dangerous, awash in moral "grayscale" -- but humanity is it COULD BE. Principled, resolute, dignified, selfless, certain: More Captain America than, say, The Hood, which perhaps is the reason why Caps was allowed, recently, to "die." Perhaps the Kal-el of Superman Returns is an anachronism in this day and age; perhaps a world so used to being WITHOUT heroes, turned so cynical and bitter and suspicious after seeing so very, very many icons, from Richard Nixon to Barry Bonds, from O.J. Simpson to Diana, Princess of Wales, from Dan Rather to Britney Spears, fumble, fail and fall, will no longer tolerate even the myth of the truly mighty, the unabashedly magnificent, the pure and decent warrior, the flawless and unimpeachable leader, the honest and incorruptible public servant. Perhaps we've lost too many REAL heroes, on battlefields at home and on the other side of the world, to be able to embrace one that seems, at times, to mock us with his imperviousness, his indomitability, his immortality. (An "illegal alien," no less!) I have many theories why America failed to embrace Superman Returns, but no real answers.

But I loved it.

Why? It's a complicated question, and a difficult answer to pin down. Part of it, to be sure, was nostalgia. America in 1978, when Richard Donner's superlative Superman debuted (and when I first saw it), was not so different from America today. Like today, we were a tired nation, beaten down to the point of despair by failures of leadership, failures of economics, failures of foreign policy. We were still a year away from the Iran Hostage Crisis, but we'd lost faith already -- after only a year or so -- in our President, a man of deep personal faith, a D.C. outsider, Governor of a southern state who'd promised a return to integrity and bipartisanship and optimism after a scandal that had ripped the Office of the Chief Executive, and by extension the Government, very nearly in two. (Sound familiar?) He'd promised a stronger, more prosperous, more caring America, one that its citizens, and the citizens of the world, could place their faith in again, one that would be a good steward of its people, its power and its many blessings. What we got were gas shortages, increasing violence toward Americans overseas, a failing economy and a President who was very clearly out of his depth, at one point even counseling Americans in a national radio address to "pray our way out of the darkness." We were spinning out of control. And then, Superman came to lift us out of the darkness on his strong, unyielding back.

A year earlier, we'd been treated to Star Wars and Close Encounters of the Third Kind, which roused and cheered audiences in this country as in all others, but it was different when our hero was so unquestionably human, so unabashedly American. Call me a racist, but it's somehow more satisfying to cheer for a homo sapiens than a Wookie, or a 'droid, or a thing that looks like a gray cross between Twiggy and a wolf spider; call me a xenophobe, but I like my heroes even better when they're wearing the Stars and Stripes (Rocky; Supes; American Maid), than when they're adorned in, say, the red phoenix of the Rebel Alliance. When Superman first winged his way into theaters, he, not the then-Governor of California, began a mini-revolution in this country; a return to confidence, to pride, to that can-do spirit that has ever been the greatest asset of this nation. With Superman, we dared to believe ourselves great again, to think ourselves deserving again, to imagine ourselves succeeding again, after Watergate and Viet Nam and OPEC and Billy Beer and, God help us, disco.

When Superman flew, he took us with him. That was the magic of the Donner film. That, and daring to make, of all things, a comic-book character, GREAT. Superman was the first of the true (now, largely, derided) '80's "action-hero" films -- larger-than-life, iconic, heroic. He made an entire nation stand up and cheer, and proud to be American again, if only because, of all the nations in the world, Superman adorned himself in OUR colors, saluted OUR standard, fought for "truth, justice, and the AMERICAN way." OUR way. He made us believe in ourselves again, to trust in ourselves again. He showed us how to be proud of ourselves again. The Reagan Revolution rode the tide of the Superman Salvation.

If you were born after, say, 1980, I'm sure you have no idea what I'm talking about. You would have had to have been there, sure; to those of you who weren't, what I'm talking about might seem like bizarre exaggeration, wanton lunacy, brazen enthusiasm. It's not. This happened. You should have seen the despondency, the defeat, the despair, of Americans in the late 1970s. We could barely even lift our heads out of our hands long enough to wave a few flags for a decidely uninspirational "celebration" of the Bicentennial. We were abject, morose, inconsolable. We'd lost a war, lots of jobs, our confidence in government and, just about, our minds, all in a few short years. It was Superman, of all things, that first began to change all that.

But let's get down to brass tacks.

One of the things I loved about Donner's original film was its SCALE. This was a film that, on all levels, dared to be great: to both portray and inspire greatness. Krypton was not, unlike Tatooine, a blighted galactic backwater; its cities towered, its buildings shone. It was the repository of knowledge of the twenty-eight known galaxies; if it kept itself at a remove from the remainder of the universe, it was only because it was so much more advanced, more cultured, more... god-like. Kal-el was no farmer, no beggar, no thief; he was a prince from the stars, sole heir to a magnificent legacy. When Kal-el journeyed from his doomed homeworld to the relatively bucolic Earth, he did so not merely by zipping PAST the stars, like the Millennium Falcon; he TRAVELED THE UNIVERSE. We saw, through his eyes, the majesty, the infinite possibility of creation, from supernovae to star nurseries, from black holes to brown dwarfs. Superman Returns brought that scale back to the franchise; brought it back to film, truth be told. In those opening moments I saw the veil pulled back to reveal the potential of film as a medium, in much the same way that Star Wars and Superman had opened up an entire universe to me so many, many years ago. The stupendous opening sequence of Superman Returns was no mere facsimile, homage or sequel; it was a promise fulfilled. The use of John Williams' epic music -- has anyone ever noted the rousing, triumphant similarities between the Theme from Superman and the marches of John Philip Sousa? -- was equally rousing and appropriate. And the resumption of the original film's spectacular title credits completed the effect; this was no hip, trendy "franchise reboot" -- this was, at long last, a continuation of the greatest superhero story, ever. Not merely a "worthy successor," but a seamless hand-off. From the first frames of Superman Returns, I was seven, again. Kal-el wasn't the only one who'd come home.

[I'M OFF TO BED -- WILL FINISH THIS TOMORROW!!!]

Superman Returns was the 2nd worst comic book adaption of all time next to the god awful Hulk. Superman Returns sucked because of the dull story and terrible performances by Kate Bosworth and Brandon Routh who is the worst actor i have seen. nuff'said

Really? Worse than Elektra and/or Catwoman? Now, I haven't seen those, nor have I seen Hulk or Superman Returns, but just off the top of my head, those two were much worse, right?

I'm not sure anybody exactly wanted to see Elektra or Catwoman. They looked pretty bad to me but nothing can be much worse than the Hulk.

Again, we've established I have odd taste.. but I actually liked everything about Elektra except Jennifer Garner.

Bless you Michael Bay. Armageddon is a masterpiece.

Becs, I can definitely go along with you on Elektra was the potential of a great movie. I thought The Hand with gimmick villains where really cool and far too quickly defeated. I thought the story was solid.

I had two big issues with the movie. First, Jennifer Garner was miscast for the role. I think she shouldn't have been Elektra in Daredevil either. Second the movie seemed like it was too short. (for those, who care I rarely- if ever say that). The villians came and went like a Darth Maul appearence, that is look at me I'm cool and watch me exit stage left. They didn't have the time to suffiently do 'their thing'. The movie is only 80 minutes, if that.

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