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mooreland wrote:

Also Ashkul, thanks for your comments up top. They were heartfelt and much appreciated. I am quite flattered that you defended me without even having met me.

no problems mooreland, my pleasure....what i'd really like to do to such ignorant, discriminative people i won't say, but let's just leave it at "Capital Punishment would feel like a welcome respite after it...."

But this all goes back to the fact that I really don't get how so much hatred and violence can come out of a people who believe in a man who spread a message of peace and love, and then use that man as weapon in their ignorant hatred and violence. And this Golden Compass boycotting ordeal is just another example of that.

Amen....the Lord has spoken through mooreland

*GRIN*....good point though....i wonder how those people would react if someone accosted them with being hypocrites....

The best part is considering that New Zealand is covered in sheep, this is probably a legitamit fear for New Zealanders.

oh my God, i just recovered from a fit of laughter which left me on the floor....i was just trying to picture a mutant woolly sheep trying to eat a man....

PS>> were you missing from the boards for a while mooreland?? coz now i think about it, i haven't seen you post here for a bit....

mooreland wrote:

But this all goes back to the fact that I really don't get how so much hatred and violence can come out of a people who believe in a man who spread a message of peace and love, and then use that man as weapon in their ignorant hatred and violence. And this Golden Compass boycotting ordeal is just another example of that.

So is all boycotting "ignorant hatred and violence" or just that done by those horrible bigoted Christians who dare to have an opinion outside what society says they're allowed to?

ashkul88 wrote:

were you missing from the boards for a while mooreland??

Yeah, ashkul, I was gone for a bit. I was really busy during a production of Sweeny Todd I was in and then I didn't really have easy access to a computer durring Thanksgiving week.

AzureWolf wrote:

So is all boycotting "ignorant hatred and violence" or just that done by those horrible bigoted Christians who dare to have an opinion outside what society says they're allowed to?

No, I just wish boycotting came from informed people, and this is an example of it coming from ill informed people. Read the book and know what you are talking about. Being informed on what you are boycotting, you can make legitamite points about why you are boycotting and if the boycotting is even relevent. I read some of your posts before Wolf, and you said you wouldn't let your 12 year old sister go see something written by an athiest who didn't belive in God. Do you have any idea how many books, movies, inventions, etc. are made by someone who doesn't believe in Christianity. Let me tell you buddy, it is a lot. And I know in regards to the sister comment, you actually said "by anyone who condems chistianity," but he doesn't condem it, he comdems the church. I am not even a non-Christian. I am just agnostic, which is why I get Pullman. This movie isn't a war on faith. It is a shout against organized religion and the corruption of power in those organizations. After that, it is the theological question of whether original sin is good or bad. And many religious people debate that today. You wouldn't have free will without original sin, but you would still be in the garden of eden without it. It is a dificult question. Inform yourself on the material you are boycotting instead of blindly denouncing something. Please read the book. It really is amazing.

And I am just pointing out that some of the most hateful people I know are actually Christians who believe in the love of Jesus, but instead are the biggest bigots themselves. I am not saying all Christians are like that, just that I know quite a few. I mean, they used the Bible as a justification of slavery. Would Jesus have condoned slavery? I think not. I just think a lot of Christians don't even get the message of their own savior.

Way to skirt the question of calling boycotting violent. Moving on.

Are you really trying to tell me you know what his motivations are? Are you prowling around inside his mind, gathering up the facts? I see this man and his attitude as an attack on my faith, and you cannot tell me I'm wrong because you don't know what he's thinking. If he said things like "flowers are pretty" and I took that as an attack on my faith, then you'd have a case. But no, I'm sorry all the Pullman defenders are forgetting that he has deliberately chosen to single out Christianity for his supposed attack on all organized religion.

mooreland wrote:

And I am just pointing out that some of the most hateful people I know are actually Christians who believe in the love of Jesus, but instead are the biggest bigots themselves.

Yeah. That's rather...the pot calling the kettle black. You can't stereotype an entire group into being prejudiced, that IS prejudiced. Nor can you qualify it by saying "not all Christians are bigots." That just makes it look like you KNOW what you're saying but trying to get away with it.

agreed completely....Wolf, take so many events in history....the First Crusade, which I'm taking a course on in college, was sanctioned by the Pope at the time and the Christian armies from Europe set off to retrieve Jerusalem, and after a long, hard war, they reached the gates of the city....but instead of holding talks with the people, they laid siege to it, broke in and mercilessly slaughtered all the inhabitants (without regard for whether they were Muslim, Jewish or even Christian)....and the Pope, in giving his blessing to the Crusades, had said that anyone who dies fighting this war would earn a place in heaven!!!! You tell me if the Church did not back an unholy cause and use heaven as a motivation to bend people to their own wills....

there are several other events like this, and mooreland's point, which i completely agree with, is that faith is not bad (in fact, it's good as in it allows us the comfort of believing that there is something bigger than us all that will aid us in times of need, etc....) but that the way organised religion abuses devotees' faiths is what we should hate on....

a contemporary example i can bring up (and a bloody controversial one too) is the few young muslim boys and girls whose minds are twisted into believing, right from a young age, that activities like suicide etc. will instantly place them in heaven....i'm not kidding, al qaeda picks out several kids as young as 6-10 yrs and brainwashes them so they grow up believing their destiny is to die for 'the cause'....now tell me which God would permit such men/women into heaven??

this is our point exactly, that organised religion is responsible for so much of the 'evil' that exists in the world today...."bringing civilization" was the excuse for colonization....and slave trade and till today, racial profiling and discrimination exists because of the twisted message the religious leaders from the 14-16th centuries spewed to support the conquistadors and plunderers who traveled to africa, south america and asia....

so, to conclude, have faith in God if you will....but know that following the Church is not your salvation....if you so desperately seek to find a place in heaven, think for yourself if everything you do is making the world a better place or not....organized religion frequently has its own agenda and the common person is just a tool to be abused to suit those plans....i hope you see our point (as well as Pullman's) about faith being fine, but the Church/Mosque/Temple/institutions being the centers of corruption and greed as opposed to a guiding light for devoted people....

PS>> i'm not saying that every Church, pastor and blah blah blah is a corrupt, evil human being....but there are many amongst the millions of churches and institutions that don't have the cleanest of intentions in what they preach....i hope my point is clear....

The Church condemns Epic Movie.

ashkul88 wrote:

faith is not bad (in fact, it's good as in it allows us the comfort of believing that there is something bigger than us all that will aid us in times of need, etc....) but that the way organised religion abuses devotees' faiths is what we should hate on....

I am glad someone gets my point.

ashkul88 wrote:

this is our point exactly, that organised religion is responsible for so much of the 'evil' that exists in the world today...."bringing civilization" was the excuse for colonization....and slave trade and till today, racial profiling and discrimination exists because of the twisted message the religious leaders from the 14-16th centuries spewed to support the conquistadors and plunderers who traveled to africa, south america and asia....

This is what I am trying to point out as what Pullman's view is, or at least what I get from the books. AZUREWOLF, PLEASE READ THIS: I do not know what is going on in Pullman's head. But I have actually read the book, and having read it, I have observed ideas and themes from the book, like any book I read. And I take from his book a condemnation of organized religion, not a condemnation of your faith. I believe Jesus was truly prolific and had some beautiful ideas, the man was a humanist in the finest sense of the word. I don't know what Pullman thinks, but he didn't have anything bad to say against Jesus. He had bad things to say about the organization that abuse people's love for him, and manipulate Christianity for their own hunger for power. Please, read the book, because then you can also have insight into what Pulman believes, or at least what is in the book, so then your blatant condemnation can have some reasonable intelligence to it. Seriously, you have no idea what Pullman has written about in this book, so how can you say anything about what he says in it. This is an amazing book, all three are. The His Dark Materials trilogy are my favorite books ever. Read them, so you can know what you are talking about.

ashkul88 wrote:

so, to conclude, have faith in God if you will....but know that following the Church is not your salvation....if you so desperately seek to find a place in heaven, think for yourself

Exactly. Don't let people tell you what to believe. Question your faith, and find out what your own personal beliefs are. Organized religion tells you what to believe from the day you are born. Find your own beliefs, so you can have an even closer connection with your faith.

Phwooh, intense theological debate and history right here.

ashkul88 wrote:

PS>> i'm not saying that every Church, pastor and blah blah blah is a corrupt, evil human being....but there are many amongst the millions of churches and institutions that don't have the cleanest of intentions in what they preach....i hope my point is clear....

It won't be clear. He didn't get mine up above. He thought I was saying all Christians are bigots, which is funny, cause I wasn't saying that at all. I have plenty of good friends who are Christians, and they believe in peace and love for all. It's just that a lot don't get that, and are filled with such hatred, and it makes me sad. So I'm sorry ashkul, there is probable chance you will be misqouted.

ohnaut wrote:

The Church condemns Epic Movie.

If he is a just and righteous God, he does. If there is a God, he does.

ohnaut wrote:

The Church condemns Epic Movie.

yeah, if you watch Epic Movie, you're condemned to hell in the afterlife!!!! honestly, tuan, tempting as it sounds, i kinda find it hard to believe....even for the Church.....

ashkul88 wrote:

yeah, if you watch Epic Movie, you're condemned to hell in the afterlife!!!! honestly, tuan, tempting as it sounds, i kinda find it hard to believe....even for the Church.....

Hmm ashkul88... ever heard of a little thing called sarcasm..... by any chance?

mooreland wrote:

I read some of your posts before Wolf, and you said you wouldn't let your 12 year old sister go see something written by an athiest who didn't belive in God.

Nope, never said that, this is what I said:

AzureWolf wrote:

I do know the agenda that the books appear to portray, and again maybe I'm wrong, but I cannot in good conscience encourage my 12-year-old sister to go see a movie who's author condemns Christianity, even if it isn't a sincere condemnation.

That means they have to have a condemnation within their book, something to the effect of "Christianity is bad" or, hey, maybe "Christianity is just a convincing mistake." Never said a word about atheists.

mooreland wrote:

So I'm sorry ashkul, there is probable chance you will be misqouted.

Who's doing the misquoting? Just because you think I may be misinterpreting you doesn't mean I'm misquoting.

mooreland wrote:

your blatant condemnation can have some reasonable intelligence to it.

So now I'm dumb?

mooreland wrote:

Don't let people tell you what to believe. Question your faith, and find out what your own personal beliefs are.

Excuse me? When did I tell you what I believe, when did you meet me in person and get to decide how much I ... forget it. This debate has become comically juvenile, it was juvenile to begin with but now... Way to go tuan, you're "offensive" and silly comments show us exactly how stupid this is, thanks for the mirror.

Okay, so.. now that i have read the book, I thought I would come back and just throw out my now further informed take on it after my long rants previously in this thread.

1) The book world is completely not tied to any form of reality in any way. So any assumption of real world finger pointing is being read between the lines.

2) "The Church" which is what it is called in the book, is barely mentioned in the first book, though I can see it becoming moreso involved later as the discussion of "Dust" as a sort of radiation of original sin (though its obvious earlier in the book) isn't spelled out till the last chapter. Going back to point 1, in this particular world daemon's have been inherent with humans since Adam and Eve, God himself has a daemon, so it is a part of human's being made in his image. They are *not* demons (at least not as is understandable within the first book alone), but more like a physical manifestation of the human soul, as well as something of a familiar or imp, or even comparable to the way some authors have handled faeries.

3) Though this book barely touched upon the topic I can see that the next will likely be largely consumed by the concept of alternate universes. I saw the book's portrayal of this as very much similar to The One, where the philosophical idea is that there are an infinite number of universes that are splintered off of our own, where one thing happens in our universe - in another universe the same thing happens with a different outcome. Again, still not terribly offensive.

4) Finally, the over all theme of the book was essentially a huge compare and contrast of the corruption of *all* people, and the power and innocence of a child. The Church is barely mentioned an is not in any way singled out, throughout the book there are good and corrupt scholars, witches, bears, and even main characters. Early on in the book this is shown with the best care when The Master (basically the head scholar at a college) alternates between good and evil choices, leaving Lyra confused as to whether he is to be trusted or not.
I found nothing in this first book that could even remotely be construed as offensive towards Christianity or Catholicism, and found it to be an excellent adventure story with one of the richest and most unique fantastical worlds I've read about in a long while.
There is a definite possibility that there will be development in the later books which is "anti-church", but considering how far removed it is made clear that this is from reality, and how well he kept from ultimately singling out religion, I have my doubts that it would be anything even close to as condemning as a history book on the Catholic church in Europe.

there you go Wolf....thanks for the input becs, that info quite seals the deal....

so as becs pointed out, Pullman has not singled out the Church, or in any way committed any grave sin against them....he has just outlined the corruption inherent in all organisational facets of religion, and so validates mooreland's and my point that believe in God if you will, and even your local Church....but when you think about decrees from the Pope, etc, think about them twice and see if they seem to have other subversive aims....

ashkul88 wrote:

so as becs pointed out, Pullman has not singled out the Church, or in any way committed any grave sin against them....he has just outlined the corruption inherent in all organisational facets of religion, and so validates mooreland's and my point that believe in God if you will, and even your local Church....but when you think about decrees from the Pope, etc, think about them twice and see if they seem to have other subversive aims....

Let's condemn the pope for telling people what to do, then turn around and in the exact same sentence...tell people what to do, LOL. I think I'm going to take your advice, and use it towards you, I think you must have other subversive aims. (That was tongue-in-cheek.) This is so ridiculous. And by the way ashkul, your advice makes no sense, I am not even close to a Catholic...

becs, I really appreciate that you actually try to make points, and really respect your debating abilities, especially compared to...never mind. Anyway, I appreciate that you have your opinion and I have mine. Let's leave it there.

Pullman has made provocative statements in the past, telling the Washington Post in 2001 that he was "trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief."

In 2003, he said that compared to the Harry Potter series, his books had been "flying under the radar, saying things that are far more subversive than anything poor old Harry has said. My books are about killing God."

http://www6.comcast.net/news/articles/world/canada/2007/11/22/Canada.Banned.Book/

Personally I would very much like to condemn this whole thread to the river lethe. No hard feelings, at least on my part, to anyone. Mooreland, ashkul88, I apologize if I was rude or offended you. Please, let's let this die and just enjoy the wonderfully creative waste of time that is FM.

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