| Poll |
| What sort of Oscars ceremony do you want to see this year? |
| The usual. |
 
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26% |
[ 6 ] |
| One produced by David Letterman. |
 
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| One produced by Jon Stewart. |
 
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9% |
[ 2 ] |
| One with 'The Simpsons'-style animation, by the guys who do, erm, 'The Simpsons.' |
 
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4% |
[ 1 ] |
| One with 'Team America: World Police'-style puppetry, by the guys who did, erm, 'Team America: World Police.' |
 
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26% |
[ 6 ] |
| One with 'South Park'-style animation, by the guys who do, erm, 'South Park.' |
 
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9% |
[ 2 ] |
| Screw it, they always suck anyway. |
 
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4% |
[ 1 ] |
| I hope they air a test pattern for four hours, and that it runs over. |
 
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9% |
[ 2 ] |
| It. Just. Doesn't. Matter. |
 
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13% |
[ 3 ] |
| Total Votes : 23 |
| Login or register to vote on this poll. |
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| Author |
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![[Post New]](/forum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif) Jan 22, 2008 1:27 PM
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becs
Mogul
Joined: Jul 17, 2007 3:09 PM
Messages: 1355
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Poor bastards, they must not play chess, or at least not very well... or else they'd have realized long ago that even the most aggressive, well-conceived, multidimensional offensive can easily be pushed too far, at which point it crumbles under the weight of its own vanity and exposes the player's flank, allowing the defender to pluck the heart right out of the overzealous neophyte's chest and show it to him. ALL SWORDS ARE DOUBLE-EDGED; today's thrilling lunge all too quickly develops into tomorrow's killing riposte, only this time, it's you on the floor, leaking precious fluids into the woodgrain.
Wow. Just WOW. I feel like I must seem to endlessly bow and scrape to your writing ability, but really you outdid yourself on that last one. Really brilliant stuff Nico.
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![[Post New]](/forum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif) Jan 23, 2008 7:43 AM
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treyb
Safety Coordinator
Joined: Jan 23, 2008 5:28 AM
Messages: 1
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Everyone who's posted here seems to agree that the writers deserve to be paid when their work is streamed online. (And really, how could you not?) But the WGA critics seem to argue that they went too far and were selfish, irresponsible and shortsighted. Whether or not the strike was irresponsible and shortsighted remains to be seen. We'll have to see what kind of agreement is reached and what kind of permanent losses result. But as for selfishness, the AMPTP is equally responsible for the strike. Add the fact that the writers actually deserve what they're asking for and it should be clear that the writers are not the selfish party.
If I learned one thing in law school, it's that it takes two parties to disagree. If I learned another, it's that a failure to act can cause results that are just as harmful as an act.
Nico and becs (if I remember all the posts correctly), you believe the writers are responsible for the strike because they called the strike. That's true, obviously, but I'm sure the AMPTP was told there would be a strike if they refused to pay for streaming content. It's not like they were blindsided. They refused to budge, knowing the refusal would cause a strike. So what we have is a battle of wills because the writers want to get paid for their work and the AMPTP doesn't want to pay. Who's really the selfish party here? The same analysis applies to losses to innocent bystanders and the economy as a whole.
As for leadership acting in it's own interests instead of the little guys', I read in the New York Times that many of the writers are getting paid around $50,000 a year. These guys can make more than that temping.
On the other hand, your post about permanent losses to the networks, Nico, shows that the AMPTP is willing to screw their own as well as the writers, the grips and all the rest. I absolutely love the line "the future could be very, very bleak indeed for the broadcast networks, whose...very survival may now be in question." I don't want the networks to die, but, if your statement is true, then either Zucker is lying (imagine that) and the permanent losses will not be as deep as you fear, or it's the AMPTP that is selfish, foolhardy, selfish, irresponsible, selfish, shortsighted and selfish.
The rest in bullet points since I'm at work:
* The AMPTP says there's no money in internet streaming. Fine. Then give the writers a percentage of zero. To get the ball rolling, I hereby give every single person who reads this sentence 100% of zero dollars. It's not that hard. (Unless someone's lying about how little money there could be in steaming.)
* The WGA isn't refusing to negotiate. They filed a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board on Dec. 13 to force the AMPTP back to the negotiating table.
* Talks ended December 7 after the AMPTP delivered an ultimatum:
"The AMPTP demands we give up several of our proposals, including Fair Market Value (our protection against vertical integration and self-dealing), animation, reality, and, most crucially, any proposal that uses distributor’s gross as a basis for residuals. This would require us to concede most of our Internet proposal as a precondition for continued bargaining. The AMPTP insists we let them do to the Internet what they did to home video." http://www.wga.org/subpage_member.aspx?id=2643
I don't work for the WGA, and I usually have zero sympathy for unions. (Including benefits, UAW workers make $71 and hour, or $142,000 based on a 40 hour work week. And Roger Moore blames the mean corporations for moving jobs to Mexico.) And I know that the workplace can be anything but fair, with jerks whose dads who went to boarding school with the VP of XYC, Inc. getting the best jobs without even trying. But in this case, it's obvious to everyone that the writers "deserve" what they're asking for. And instead of doing what's right, the AMPTP is willing to risk the survival of their own, the television networks.
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![[Post New]](/forum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif) Jan 23, 2008 9:01 AM
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AzureWolf
Special Effects Foreman
Joined: Jun 10, 2007 7:04 AM
Messages: 114
Offline
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Nice post, treyb, good arguments.
Welcome to the forum
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![[Post New]](/forum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif) Jan 31, 2008 12:32 PM
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AzureWolf
Special Effects Foreman
Joined: Jun 10, 2007 7:04 AM
Messages: 114
Offline
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WGA gets thrown a bone, err taco
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![[Post New]](/forum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif) Feb 20, 2008 8:44 PM
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Nicodemus
Mogul
Joined: Mar 30, 2007 6:15 PM
Messages: 1147
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OK. The strike's over, the world didn't end -- tell that to the folks behind Bionic Woman, though, or Friday Night Lights, or even 24 -- but there's been an interesting development I thought some of you might be interested in. First, however, some responses...
treyb:
...[A]s for selfishness, the AMPTP is equally responsible for the strike. Add the fact that the writers actually deserve what they're asking for and it should be clear that the writers are not the selfish party.
Well, look... It's like I've said before, I'm for everyone getting fair compensation. And I'm not saying the WGA didn't have good points. I just don't like how a single union can upend an entire industry, jeopardize the jobs of thousands of people in OTHER unions, throw an entire regional economy into chaos, etc., etc., etc. But, really, you have to remember: I spent over ten years in the military. I'm not a person who admires people who walk out on their jobs and their responsibilities, and who make messes for other people to deal with and clean up. Again, I'm not anti-union; I'm pro-UNIVERSAL unionization, which might insulate corporations and industries and economies from any one petulant union's world-shaking temper tantrum. But, hey, I'm not an economist. glebe is, but I think I pissed him off something fierce, and I don't see him around any more. A pity.
No one forced the WGA to strike. There wasn't a lockout or anything, if that was the case, I'd feel very, very differently about the whole situation. They had demands, and they weren't satisfied with the entire negotiation process, so they pushed back from the table and threw Molotov cocktails into the assembled crowd of interested observers. Sorry, I can't feel pity for the WGA; they threw a fit, and if they were my eight-year-old daughter, they would've likely caught a beating for it, just like any out-of-control child would.
If I learned one thing in law school, it's that it takes two parties to disagree. If I learned another, it's that a failure to act can cause results that are just as harmful as an act.
Yes, it takes two parties to disagree -- and, really, I knew that, and I just took a couple Pre-Law classes; for that matter, I live in the world -- but only one to walk away. I understand the symbolism, the statement, of walking away, but in the end it does NOTHING to resolve the situation, as I'm sure any mediator or arbitrator knows. All it does is up the stakes, elevate tensions, and create drama. It's a ploy, a maneuver, designed to improve one's leverage; it's a debt collector for the mob who informs his mark, Yeah? Well, pay up, or I'll just break your friggin' kneecaps. It's a strategem designed to reveal the other party's squeal point, not a hifalutin legal tactic, and it's got about as much to do with case law as a ham sandwich.
And, sure, that's a neat little aphorism, "[F]ailure to act can [be] just as harmful as an act." But there were actions well short of going out on strike that were still available to the WGA... they just got impatient, and arch, and decided to use the A-bomb. And not ALL actions are BETTER than inaction, or, certainly, considered action. This one hurt EVERYBODY, and the WGA was gambling that it would hurt the studios more than it did them. They were wrong, I think, but it doesn't really matter. There are no "winners" here, only those who lost big, and those who lost HUGE. Some action.
Nico...you believe the writers are responsible for the strike because they called the strike. That's true, obviously, but I'm sure the AMPTP was told there would be a strike if they refused to pay for streaming content. It's not like they were blindsided.
You're right, they weren't "blindsided," but I can think of another word for it: EXTORTED. Unsuccessfully, I may add.
They refused to budge, knowing the refusal would cause a strike. So what we have is a battle of wills because the writers want to get paid for their work and the AMPTP doesn't want to pay. Who's really the selfish party here?
That's really an incredibly simplistic way to present the situation. It's not as if the WGA has been working in labor camps, chained to their typewriters and forced to work for no pay. This has always been about how much to INCREASE writers' compensation; no wage cuts or non-monetary compensation givebacks were on the table, here. The AMPTP may not have been as forthcoming as they could have been, certainly, and I happen to think the WGA had a point on new-media revenues, but let's not confuse the WGA with slaves, indentured servants or the working poor.
The same analysis applies to losses to innocent bystanders and the economy as a whole.
I know you want to blame everybody, here, but only one party walked away when they didn't get what they wanted right off and grew tired of talking. And it wasn't the big, bad AMPTP.
As for leadership acting in it's own interests instead of the little guys', I read in [T]he New York Times that many of the writers are getting paid around $50,000 a year. These guys can make more than that temping.
Then maybe they should. It's a free country, no one's holding a gun to their head and keeping them on-staff for Paramount or Imagine Entertainment or CBS.
On the other hand, your post about permanent losses to the networks, Nico, shows that the AMPTP is willing to screw their own as well as the writers, the grips and all the rest. I absolutely love the line "the future could be very, very bleak indeed for the broadcast networks, whose...very survival may now be in question." I don't want the networks to die, but, if your statement is true, then either Zucker is lying (imagine that) and the permanent losses will not be as deep as you fear, or it's the AMPTP that is selfish, foolhardy, selfish, irresponsible, selfish, shortsighted and selfish.
No one's exactly wearing a white hat, here, I agree. And it's not like I'm on the side of the studios. But I find the writers' union's actions dumb, deplorable and self-defeating. They'd have been better off doing what I suggested: Taking the higher ground, keeping the lines of communication open and presenting their case to the public, then striking only as a LAST resort, instead of as a big, dramatic, precipitous shot across the bow of the AMPTP. A lot of people in Hollywood, like talk show hosts, would have been very, very sympathetic, I think, and the leverage they gained with the public could have put them in a far better position to dictate terms. They gambled big, but eventually you've got to either show your hole cards or fold the hand. They folded, so what does that say for the hand they were holding? Little fish ought to know their limits and not get into staring contests with the bigger fish, is all I'm sayin'. Because the bigger fish can swallow them whole, and just keep swimming. Just keep swimming...
The AMPTP says there's no money in internet streaming.
That's because -- for now -- most of it's marketing, not what's currently defined as "content." No real revenues are currently being generated off streaming content at this time. That'll change, and a new paradigm will emerge, and I agree the WGA should have that written in before it becomes the new business model. But yours is of course a sensible solution ("give the writers a percentage of zero"). (Which means, naturally, that the lawyers and bean-counters for AMPTP will never, ever go for it.)
The WGA isn't refusing to negotiate. They filed a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board on Dec. 13 to force the AMPTP back to the negotiating table.
AFTER going out on strike, THEY want to dictate when the other guy reaches his hand out to make friends? That's just absurd. They ENDED negotiations! By walking out on them! They want to restart 'em, fine: END THE STRIKE! Laughable ploy.
Talks ended December 7 after the AMPTP delivered an ultimatum...
Now, there, that point I'll be happy to concede. Ultimatums (Ultimata? Ultimato? Ultimataberterschnivel?) are in NO ONE's best interest, and, there, the AMPTP was feeling its oats and stoking its arrogance and backing the WGA into a corner. One could make the argument that the WGA had NO CHOICE, at this point BUT to strike... Like I said, NO ONE's wearing a white hat, here. Except for all the good folks on the periphery who got hurt by this fiasco, of course.
I don't work for the WGA, and I usually have zero sympathy for unions. (Including benefits, UAW workers make $71 and hour, or $142,000 based on a 40 hour work week. And Roger Moore blames the mean corporations for moving jobs to Mexico.)
Yeah, well, I guess the 500 or so UAW workers actually left in the U.S. are earning the salaries of the 150,000 or so that have already been shitcanned, yeah?
...I know that the workplace can be anything but fair, with jerks whose dads who went to boarding school with the VP of XYC, Inc. getting the best jobs without even trying. But in this case, it's obvious to everyone that the writers "deserve" what they're asking for. ...[Instead] of doing what's right, the AMPTP is willing to risk the survival of their own, the television networks.
Well, what I've learned is, EVERYTHING is political, or at least can be, given the right -- or, better phrased, appropriate, conditions. And, yes, it IS obvious, to me at least, that the writers have a point about new-media compensation, but BEING right doesn't always make what you DO right. A fine line, perhaps, but one I've stepped over quite often in my own life, much to my shame and regret and to the dismay and embarrassment of many others in my life. In MY opinion, the writers committed a great wrong in an attempt to right a somewhat LESSER wrong. But, hey, that's just me.
You're definitely on-target when you say that the AMPTP is prepared to jeopardize its own security and stability to get its way, but the WGA is engaging in no less risky and potentially suicidal behavior, in my opinion, by striking.
Wolfie:
Nice post, treyb, good arguments. ...Welcome to the forum
Seconded. Great first post, and although we definitely disagree -- passionately -- you stated your case eloquently and with conviction. Hope to see ya more 'round here.
Okay... on to the new stuff. About a month ago, on January 21 in this thread, I posted this:
...[It's] possible -- just possible -- that the WGA strike [may herald] the end of an entire industry's business model. ...If the networks and netlets abandon the upfront as their annual one-stop shopping center for plotting advertiser revenues and thereby determining their annual budgets...how will they determine potential revenues in future? Could commercials as we know them give way en masse to whole-program sponsorships by a single corporate entity? Might...product placement...defray program production expenses? Are we to return to the halcyon days of...The Texaco Star Theater? Or, is it possible that future television advertising revenue will be determined, literally, from moment to moment, with networks abandoning fixed, seasonal pricing and moving to a more dynamic paradigm?
This isn't mere theoretical gobbledygook. Such things matter...in business as in all things, what's new isn't always what's best. ...If Zucker's correct -- if his de facto pronouncement of the impending death of network television's standard business model turns out to be prescient...then the future could be very, very bleak indeed for the broadcast networks... [Their] very survival may now be in question. ...[It] COULD lead to a...fundamental, wholesale renovation in how content comes to air -- who owns it, funds it, exploits it and, ultimately, profits from it (or hopes to).
Well, check out Exhibit A... From Tuesday's New York Times:
February 19, 2008, 5:29 pm
Getting Ready for ‘The Endless Season’
By Brian Stelter and Stuart Elliott
After months of speculation, NBC confirmed on Tuesday that it would sidestep the annual star-studded “upfront” presentation for advertisers and hold a series of client meetings with media buyers instead.
Perhaps more important for television viewers, the network said it would embrace a year-round prime-time programming schedule, jettisoning the frequently criticized practice of saving most shows for the traditional September- to-May television season.
For several years, the broadcast networks have gradually replaced repeats during the summer and winter months with some new shows, mostly of the unscripted form. NBC’s announcement appears to be a more dramatic step in that direction. The network is already preparing several shows for the summer months, including a second season of American Gladiators and a broadcast version of the singing competition Nashville Star.
Get ready for “the endless season, ” said Gene DeWitt, chairman and chief executive at DeWitt Media in New York, when the broadcasters “launch programs when they’re ready and promote them when they’re ready. ”
“There are many more opportunities to introduce programs to viewers over the course of a year than over the course of a few weeks in September,” Mr. DeWitt said approvingly of the NBC plans.
The fourth quarter is often the most important of the year for many marketers like retailers and auto makers, Mr. DeWitt noted, but under the current system many of the broadcast shows they are offered from October through December are new and untried.
If more shows are brought out earlier in the calendar year, he said, “you’d have a track record of their performance.”
“We’d have more reliable rating information,” he added, “so we won’t be going into the fourth quarter blind.”
A 52-week broadcast schedule may make it more difficult to track the hits and flops, Mr. DeWitt said, but “it’s the way of the world today; things move faster and we all have to keep up.”
On Tuesday afternoon, NBC said it would present a 52-week programming schedule to advertisers in New York in early April. The private meetings will be followed by a “spotlight event” on May 12 to showcase, as the network put it in a press release, “the broad spectrum of advertising opportunities available within NBC Universal.” In other words, the company wants to emphasize its promotional platforms beyond prime time.
The event will partly supplant the lavish upfront presentations sponsored by broadcast networks to promote their fall television lineups. Jeff Zucker, the chief executive of NBC Universal, had previously said he believed the glitzy presentations were extravagant and inefficient ways of selling advertising time. NBC’s event was held each year at Radio City Music Hall. Still, NBC will hold the “spotlight event” as well as a party during the upfront week.
Senior executives at media agencies greeted the NBC decision with mild to enthusiastic praise.
“I applaud it,” said Charlie Rutman, chief executive for North American operations at MPG in New York, a media agency owned by Havas, because “the idea of a constant stream of new programming is good.”
“Programming should be like a good wine,” Mr. Rutman said. “Put it on the air when it’s ready.” A year-round schedule will provide “more opportunity for trial” of new shows by viewers, he said, adding: “Some will stick. Some won’t.”
Either way, “it improves the chances they will be sampled,” Mr. Rutman said, compared with the traditional method of “introducing everything in the fall.”
Shari Anne Brill, senior vice president and director for programming at another New York media agency, Carat, described the NBC plan as “a smart idea,” likening it to steps that Fox Broadcasting has tried in the past of announcing several schedules for a season, with new shows coming on the air in September, November, January and spring.
Stuart Elliott contributed reporting.
Wow.
My prediction: It'll take just a season for the other major broadcast networks to adopt the same 52-week paradign. Other predictions: "sweeps" periods as we know them will be dead within two to three seasons; riskier, edgier shows will be coming to television; and -- perhaps the BEST news -- eventually, new shows will have longer and more opportunities to prove themselves. And, of course, TV Guide's storied "Fall Preview" is about to go extinct.
And the adventure continues...
I remain, as always...
Nico.
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